Reb Thomas, I think we need to address a far more important ethical question:
Is it still OK to love the Original Trilogy knowing that it was made by the same no-talent clown who would go on to make the Prequels and then sell his soul to Disney?
Well, now that I've been reliably informed that the "The Force is female" I feel less qualified to comment, but yes, I think we can forgive Lucas. When he sold out to Disney they were still, largely speaking Disney. But the Prequels and Sequels must be cast into the out darkness--except for season 1 of the Mandalorian . . . . .
I almost didn't finish your piece, when you said these words to introduce your opinion: "And how should we think about it?" It's a common new phase, to preface an article with the question-- how should we think? As if you are going to tell us how. But it's all wrong. We don't need to be told.
This said, I'm glad I did read it through. I'm an artist and also a Jew. It's interesting but also tricky to think where art begins, at what point we transcend into that holy state, and at what level of doing/making one qualifies for these transcendent qualities.
It's also hard to decide the truth about Roger's antisemitism, because of his slippery denials.
I once bought a house, next door to a lovely Catholic couple. When they found out I was Jewish, each made antisemitic remarks to me. Seemingly innocuous but truly hateful remarks, made separately, but coming from one united ugly mind. After that, I couldn't look at them. They weren't artists. Well maybe they were. He liked to build things. She liked to dance. In the back yard with her children. Joyfully in an artful, higher consciousness-type state. But I still had to sell the house and move.
The Wall is musically okay, but morally trash, and it's not surprising to me that Waters is a rabid antisemite. Why do I say that? Because his antisemitism stems from the same toxicity he propagates on The Wall. He follows the dogmatic and morally twisted oppressor/oppressed formula, victims, who can do no evil vs. the powerful privileged who can do no good. What else is 'hey teacher, leave us kids alone', but the notion that the education system, (which, by the way, he benefited from greatly), is nothing but a brainwashing tyranny to be overthrown, pure oppression and evil? With the all innocent children. Well, of course, children are innocent, that's why he gets away with his simplistic and immoral binary politics. Teenagers love it, of course, stickin' it to the man before they go off to college. He applies exactly the same rubric to Jews and Palestinians, Jews the tyrannical 'white' colonialist oppressors who tell 'filthy lies' about women being raped vs the Palestinians, who in his mind are 'children' with no agency or responsibility for their actions, no matter how evil. He's the worst of the champagne socialists, worth millions, claiming to not be a 'capitalist', and doing his best to prove it by going after the 'money-grubbing' Jews. He is truly a pathetic figure and dangerous voice at the current moment.
Great article. There are many examples of similar contradictions. Wagner, comes to mind. I saw Pink Floyd in 1975 and in 1980, at the Sports Arena in Los Angeles. I love their music. It’s distressing to absorb Roger Waters hatred. I suspect he always had that Jew hatred. I don’t consider J. K. Rowling as the same contradiction as she’s protecting, not degrading, IMHO.
Well this is confusing to me on a very personal level. For one, I have been hearing for 17+ years that "EVERYTHING is art" . . . Also, I disagree with your descriptions of your "non-writer" persona (and whether you do or don't have one??). In any case, I can sympathize because I also love and grew up on Pink Floyd (among others) and it is hard to not think of something once you know it, just like you can't unsee or unhear things. And it's hard to not make the association. The moment those first few notes are heard, I am flooded with ambivalence
In the novel, Dickens repeatedly refers to Fagan as “the Jew”; and he is hung at the end. It's not like in the musical where Fagin is a charmingly wicked scoundrel. And I can tell you that when I was reading it to my son it was uncomfortable to keep having to say “the Jew,” and a few times I omitted to do so and just said "Fagin" because it was so obviously derogatory. It was obvious, including to my son, that Dickens didn’t like Jews, and he got criticized for that even in his own lifetime. That having said been said there’s clearly a spectrum of Jew hatred, and Dickens was certainly not the worst offender. And regardless, I think he is an important writer and ought to be studied and respected as such. And, yes, there is an active debate about whether Shylock is an antisemitic depiction of a Jew. I actually discuss this in a different Quillette article: https://quillette.com/2023/11/22/they-told-me-so/. But I never said Dickens was "beyond the pale," and neither is Shakespeare. Quite the contrary, they were expressing run-of-the-mill antisemitism for their time.
Separating the man from his art is a noble act, but how can a singular character like Dickens’ Fagin be considered a hot potato even during these times of political correctness? It would be different if Dickens had been a writer of repeated antisemitic screeds. Is Shakespeare’s Shylock also beyond the pale? Where does this end?
Beautifully written. I too was an enormous Floyd fan as a youth, years before The Wall was released. I still am. Thank you for this perspective on Art vs Artist. I disagree with the politics of most musicians I enjoy, and I struggle with that sometimes.
It's interesting, and I've been really compelled by this argument over the last few years about what to do when bad people make good art. I'll admit, I disassociate a bit when it comes to this. I loved Pink Floyd growing up and I loved The Wall. Frankly, it spoke to me as the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. Can I take from art what I choose? Is that being selfish/immoral/self-defeating? All things to consider. Thanks for writing this.
There’s an example that’s always interested me— I read a story by Kipling that illustrated beautifully the attitude of an Indian character toward the English character who had treated him
like a lesser human. As the writer of that story, he was unwilling to be narrow or to lack empathy for that character.
What a thoughtful, lovely meditation on a tough problem. I really like your observation that often the art is better than the person.
My own difficult artist is Roman Polanski, who drugged and raped a 12-year-old girl and escaped having to stand trial or face consequences for his crime. And yet he has created some of the most extraordinarily beautiful and thought-provoking films ever made. I have decided to continue watching his films for a simple reason: the films, most obviously Repulsion, Chinatown, and Tess, make it clear that he knows that the rape of a child is an immeasurable, unmitigated evil. He committed that terrible crime, all the while knowing the monstrosity of his act. As you say, the work is better than the artist. And so while I would never be friends with Polanski, I choose to watch his films, guilt-free.
I was in London in 2018 for a mining conference. The sales rep for a data company was wooing the executive team and said he could get us tickets to Roger Waters who was doing a show in a few weeks. I said, "Thanks, but it'd be hard for me to be within range and unable to take a shot at the fucker.". Everyone at the table looked stunned, while a colleague tried to lighten the mood, saying, "Steady on, mate.". I said, 'Sorry, that was inappropriate in a business setting, but you need to understand that this asshole calls for the death of my children on a daily basis.". I truly look forward to his death. I hope it's a miserable one and he suffers.
I could not agree more! Waters is trash and I still do enjoy Pink Floyd music, especially the live DVDs that are after his departure from the band. “Pulse” is a great live concert DVD, and I don’t have to see Waters disgusting face while I enjoy the music
Finished your piece on Quillette and subscribed to your Substack. Don’t begrudge you continuing to enjoy Pink Floyd but suspect you’re being too generous regarding Waters in the ‘80’s — he was likely a Jew-hating terrorism enthusiast back then!
Reb Thomas, I think we need to address a far more important ethical question:
Is it still OK to love the Original Trilogy knowing that it was made by the same no-talent clown who would go on to make the Prequels and then sell his soul to Disney?
Well, now that I've been reliably informed that the "The Force is female" I feel less qualified to comment, but yes, I think we can forgive Lucas. When he sold out to Disney they were still, largely speaking Disney. But the Prequels and Sequels must be cast into the out darkness--except for season 1 of the Mandalorian . . . . .
😂
I almost didn't finish your piece, when you said these words to introduce your opinion: "And how should we think about it?" It's a common new phase, to preface an article with the question-- how should we think? As if you are going to tell us how. But it's all wrong. We don't need to be told.
This said, I'm glad I did read it through. I'm an artist and also a Jew. It's interesting but also tricky to think where art begins, at what point we transcend into that holy state, and at what level of doing/making one qualifies for these transcendent qualities.
It's also hard to decide the truth about Roger's antisemitism, because of his slippery denials.
I once bought a house, next door to a lovely Catholic couple. When they found out I was Jewish, each made antisemitic remarks to me. Seemingly innocuous but truly hateful remarks, made separately, but coming from one united ugly mind. After that, I couldn't look at them. They weren't artists. Well maybe they were. He liked to build things. She liked to dance. In the back yard with her children. Joyfully in an artful, higher consciousness-type state. But I still had to sell the house and move.
The Wall is musically okay, but morally trash, and it's not surprising to me that Waters is a rabid antisemite. Why do I say that? Because his antisemitism stems from the same toxicity he propagates on The Wall. He follows the dogmatic and morally twisted oppressor/oppressed formula, victims, who can do no evil vs. the powerful privileged who can do no good. What else is 'hey teacher, leave us kids alone', but the notion that the education system, (which, by the way, he benefited from greatly), is nothing but a brainwashing tyranny to be overthrown, pure oppression and evil? With the all innocent children. Well, of course, children are innocent, that's why he gets away with his simplistic and immoral binary politics. Teenagers love it, of course, stickin' it to the man before they go off to college. He applies exactly the same rubric to Jews and Palestinians, Jews the tyrannical 'white' colonialist oppressors who tell 'filthy lies' about women being raped vs the Palestinians, who in his mind are 'children' with no agency or responsibility for their actions, no matter how evil. He's the worst of the champagne socialists, worth millions, claiming to not be a 'capitalist', and doing his best to prove it by going after the 'money-grubbing' Jews. He is truly a pathetic figure and dangerous voice at the current moment.
Great article. There are many examples of similar contradictions. Wagner, comes to mind. I saw Pink Floyd in 1975 and in 1980, at the Sports Arena in Los Angeles. I love their music. It’s distressing to absorb Roger Waters hatred. I suspect he always had that Jew hatred. I don’t consider J. K. Rowling as the same contradiction as she’s protecting, not degrading, IMHO.
Well this is confusing to me on a very personal level. For one, I have been hearing for 17+ years that "EVERYTHING is art" . . . Also, I disagree with your descriptions of your "non-writer" persona (and whether you do or don't have one??). In any case, I can sympathize because I also love and grew up on Pink Floyd (among others) and it is hard to not think of something once you know it, just like you can't unsee or unhear things. And it's hard to not make the association. The moment those first few notes are heard, I am flooded with ambivalence
I don't recall saying that "EVERYTHING" is art," but if I did, that must have been the non-writer me talking. Writer-me would never write that ;-).
Ha. I see what you did there!
Love you AND Writer You
Why would Roger Waters say such a thing? I’ve lost respect for the man because of it.
In the novel, Dickens repeatedly refers to Fagan as “the Jew”; and he is hung at the end. It's not like in the musical where Fagin is a charmingly wicked scoundrel. And I can tell you that when I was reading it to my son it was uncomfortable to keep having to say “the Jew,” and a few times I omitted to do so and just said "Fagin" because it was so obviously derogatory. It was obvious, including to my son, that Dickens didn’t like Jews, and he got criticized for that even in his own lifetime. That having said been said there’s clearly a spectrum of Jew hatred, and Dickens was certainly not the worst offender. And regardless, I think he is an important writer and ought to be studied and respected as such. And, yes, there is an active debate about whether Shylock is an antisemitic depiction of a Jew. I actually discuss this in a different Quillette article: https://quillette.com/2023/11/22/they-told-me-so/. But I never said Dickens was "beyond the pale," and neither is Shakespeare. Quite the contrary, they were expressing run-of-the-mill antisemitism for their time.
Great analysis!
Btw….. Fagin was *hanged at the end. Pictures are hung, people are hanged.
C'mon, professor 😉
He might have been both — we don’t know. 😜
Separating the man from his art is a noble act, but how can a singular character like Dickens’ Fagin be considered a hot potato even during these times of political correctness? It would be different if Dickens had been a writer of repeated antisemitic screeds. Is Shakespeare’s Shylock also beyond the pale? Where does this end?
Beautifully written. I too was an enormous Floyd fan as a youth, years before The Wall was released. I still am. Thank you for this perspective on Art vs Artist. I disagree with the politics of most musicians I enjoy, and I struggle with that sometimes.
His music is easy to like but everyone who has ever met him seems to agree that he needs to be switched off & switched back in again.
Let's not forget the interviewer here. What a disgusting pair.
He’s a dick but the album is just amazing. Artists are no more credible than football players when it comes to politics.
It's interesting, and I've been really compelled by this argument over the last few years about what to do when bad people make good art. I'll admit, I disassociate a bit when it comes to this. I loved Pink Floyd growing up and I loved The Wall. Frankly, it spoke to me as the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. Can I take from art what I choose? Is that being selfish/immoral/self-defeating? All things to consider. Thanks for writing this.
I like your piece a lot, thanks!
There’s an example that’s always interested me— I read a story by Kipling that illustrated beautifully the attitude of an Indian character toward the English character who had treated him
like a lesser human. As the writer of that story, he was unwilling to be narrow or to lack empathy for that character.
What a thoughtful, lovely meditation on a tough problem. I really like your observation that often the art is better than the person.
My own difficult artist is Roman Polanski, who drugged and raped a 12-year-old girl and escaped having to stand trial or face consequences for his crime. And yet he has created some of the most extraordinarily beautiful and thought-provoking films ever made. I have decided to continue watching his films for a simple reason: the films, most obviously Repulsion, Chinatown, and Tess, make it clear that he knows that the rape of a child is an immeasurable, unmitigated evil. He committed that terrible crime, all the while knowing the monstrosity of his act. As you say, the work is better than the artist. And so while I would never be friends with Polanski, I choose to watch his films, guilt-free.
I agree. Also relevant that Geimer forgave him.
I was in London in 2018 for a mining conference. The sales rep for a data company was wooing the executive team and said he could get us tickets to Roger Waters who was doing a show in a few weeks. I said, "Thanks, but it'd be hard for me to be within range and unable to take a shot at the fucker.". Everyone at the table looked stunned, while a colleague tried to lighten the mood, saying, "Steady on, mate.". I said, 'Sorry, that was inappropriate in a business setting, but you need to understand that this asshole calls for the death of my children on a daily basis.". I truly look forward to his death. I hope it's a miserable one and he suffers.
I could not agree more! Waters is trash and I still do enjoy Pink Floyd music, especially the live DVDs that are after his departure from the band. “Pulse” is a great live concert DVD, and I don’t have to see Waters disgusting face while I enjoy the music
Finished your piece on Quillette and subscribed to your Substack. Don’t begrudge you continuing to enjoy Pink Floyd but suspect you’re being too generous regarding Waters in the ‘80’s — he was likely a Jew-hating terrorism enthusiast back then!
Thanks for subscribing! At least he had the good sense to keep his mouth shut then. . . .